before jumpdrives and jumpbridges

Not really just stating how it is. I mean I am proud to be part of my alliance I am proud that we are a effective team. In that sense im very proud.

We got along just fine before jumpfreighters on fueling pos and moving moongoo. But in order to do so your alliance would want to police its space so you could move about. Also we used these things back in the day when we moved haulers and freighters called scouts and intel channels they were so OP.
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Its funny the economy got along just fine before jumpfreighters.

Amarr outpost in 0.0? Go on testserver and have a look they get a flat 30% req. reduction on everything for capitals that means 30% less minerals to build the capital parts and again 30% less capital components to build the capital itself and if you upgrade the station you can get that bonus up even higher.. It seems CCP is been really quite about it which is wired given that it is on SISI.

Yeah because the moment they released capitals and supercapitals everyone had them that instant and were using them at such a rate that it had the impact on the game that they do today or even close for that matter :colbert:

It has 30% time as well right now. So not sure on how much of that is fat-fingered. And 5% for 60b would be a really bad deal. I'd call it pointless.

So you are arguing about semantics now? I mean now that we have all these outpost and all these other industrial ships that can move much higher volumes than a Iteron what's the problem?

Ill concede that perhaps my timeline might be blurred together. But ultimately a more inclusive nullsec with more conflict drivers is for the best. Currently both of our alliances are part of the problem. I honestly can't see any changes CCP can make that would shake up nullsec enough. Other than changing jumpdrives jumpbridges to like I suggest other than adding a ton of new space. But im afraid that would only be a temporary stopgap.

Well, if we wanna go the route of limiting power projection, how about starting with something smaller and more incremental? How about we just remove Titan bridging? I mean it wouldn't solve the whole problem but it would be a start.

I've always felt uneasy about the idea that 99% of Titans' role in Eve is just to sit in a POS and bridge.

Easy to overcome, but can be part of solution.
Why?
Because the more things to manage , the bigger possibility for something go wrong.

I think instead of influence , increasing sov bill for the distance from capitol , will be enough.

No one will want to pay 7bill to keep sov in a system on the 3 regions away.
This will force also changes to the JB network.

I just hope you realize this simple fact:

If the time it takes to conquer a system is less than the time it takes for a group to move capitals over a longer distance, join in on the fight for the system and then move back home before they lost their system; nothing will change for the political landscape. Please tell me you understand that.

I can tl;dr this whole problem:

1. Its too easy to control large swaths of space via capitals and capitals are too hard to kill in large numbers

Making Sov cost more might do something to break up huge swathes of space owned by a single entity, but if the space is unused in a 40k man coalition, why is going to be more desirable to a much, much smaller group? Bad space is bad.

What if they cut titan and supercarrier EHP in half and removed ewar immunity?

The timers for critical stuff yes. But smaller things should be possible to be disabled faster, like station services, jump rbidge networks and moon mining operation.


We msut have strategical targets, that need a 24h timers, and tactical targets that must be handled quite fast to force an active defense when attacked during the play time of the home alliance.

Because it is desirable to keep alliance players who own space relatively close to home, low value systems would be great points of contest for blowing up an alliance's sovereignty costs-but only if it is trivial to contest sovereignty in systems that are minimally developed or utilized.

Not by a small fleet. If people want more of smaller alliances/power blocs, then you NEED to stop thinking on the terms of fleets always having 200 members or more. The majority of the people that I know and that left 0.0, did it because they do not want that scale of fleets as the standard to do anything meaningful.

The coalitions are a ruse set up to keep people interested in protecting those isk generation sources, both sides are so big now that it doesnt matter whose blue or red to who, because they all know that no one will attack the other's income, because that would be financial suicide.

Youre calling me dumb but you basically said the same thing i did. Coalitions need coalitions to control moons. That's the end of it. They need to control space. Why do they need to control space? Moons. Nice work saying exactly what I did brah.

Where the income comes from is irrelevant quite frankly. The fact remains to get large amounts of income, you need space to do it. While it remains profitable to hold large swathes of space, you will still get massive coalitions.

You can make edgy posts at me all you like, but I know more about the politics of this game than you, and manny certainly knows more than me, so why dont you moonwalk back to VFK into another 1000man fleet to defend a POS against 50 guys where you belong, okay buddy?

wow so many words so little said.

It DOES NOT MATTER where the income stream is coming from. AS LONG AS IT IS PROFITABLE to hold large areas of space, large coalitions will form to hold it.

Do you really think eve politics has changed so much in a year and a half that my vastly superior knowledge to yours doesnt matter any more? Please, I help set the foundations up for the coalitions that exist today. I'm one of the people that's responsible for the way eve is right now. I know most of the big players on first name basis. Gudfites went out of the window a long time ago, and are only a ruse so that big powerblocks can have safe spaces to build supercaps and build big wallets so that when they lose them all they can just build another round. That's how its worked for the past 6 years. People get space rich, and coalitions keep having the excuse to have big coalitions.

Its funny the economy got along just fine before jumpfreighters.

Just curious here...

Since this predates my time in game (which is fairly long now), can any of your rally bitter vets () describe this nerf ot carriers?

My analogy of Supers being Eve's ICBM was correct then. They seem to be more of a deterrent than anything else. If you could get seriously backing in PL for Manfreds ideas there would be some weight to it. Not that Manfred himself isn't weight enough behind them.

You just sound as if youre making excuses because you dont want the current meta to change. I don't really care about your opinion, youre wrong. It's clear its pointless tryingto reason with you.

Please link something where I have said the current sov system is fine. Or you could continue making up more stuff about me I suppose.

I think supers and capitals are cool and exciting. They make cool headlines and we need them for the hitpoints of structures. The problem has always has been power projection. Hell we have so many of the things because its easy as hell for 1 guy to move the minerals to build one to nullsec in a single day.

If it were just supers that were the problem, nerfing them would be the solution. Supers still need to be nerfed - make them twice as good as a dread and cost 5 times the price, but its not the only thing that needs fixing.

Ironically the highest posts objecting to Manfreds ideas are members of the CFC. Which really should come at no surprise. TEST may have died but for all their blathering at least they broke away and did things away from the HBC.
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When BL logged your members raged including Blarf. How dare we deny your 1000 people content? You don't get it do you? There's too many fish in this ever shrinking blue sea.

If you're looking for security for your freighters... you will not find it in changes like these. Honestly, thats perfectly fine. There was a time in EVE where escorting freighters ten or even thirty jumps into nullsec was a common thing.

I'm not even going to mince words, but your alliance in specific, Mynna, has played a large role in promoting the stagnation. Not the only alliance by far, but it is a large one. It would be nice if you took a step back and could try to divorce your own desire for profit for you and your alliance, to one that is actually able to look at how best to better the game going forward.

Please, keep yourself away from claiming your alliance achieved everything on it's own :) We all know that you are nothing, always were nothing and always will remain big nothing without your precious pile of warm bodies. GSF was a parasitic alliance, still is a parasitic alliance and will always remain as such. Linking Sov map and claiming your alliance did it all right on it's own makes you look like a poor deluded guy :)

Small alliance logistical operations : You can not jump your freighter as easily. You have to announce your passage to alliance so no one else use it for that hour. IT means to all SPIES too. Good luck. Ah due to restriction you can not even bring in your escort fleet with you.. But as long as you are safe that there are no one in next JB system and you believe in your alliance mates and scouts, you can try to make a run for it.

I'd like to ask does anyone think its reasonable that a single player with a jumpfreighter can just jump back and forth from nullsec to empire and buy literally anything from empire and bring it back. Does that seem like a immersive experience? I mean where do you live that Joe the Lorry driver goes off and supplies you and all your mates with what you need to live and survive from a single point.

I'm pretty sure every line member can't afford a few hundred carriers and a few hundred dreads to accomplish what they can do today with just one of each.

Such a change Wentworth III suggest would have a real impact. So please, stop the fear mongering.

The exact same can be used to circunvent ANYTHING you can think regarding power projection.

And I am just trying to proposed a dampener on the power projection, not a wall. Because even a dampener is better than nothing as long as it cannot be easily circunvented by larger groups but not by smaller groups.

And yet.. that is the only possibility. Because we all agree what we have now is bad. And CCP will NEVER remove jumps because of low sec.

It is hilarious to see those who want nothing to change run in this thread and start banging the fear mongering drum.

I think part of what Manny is getting at, and he can comment if I'm wrong, is that part of his goal is to make current logistics alot less important. That is instead of making a Jita run to buy 500 cruiser hulls and move them out to null, you'd source those cruiser hulls out in null itself. Now logistics would entail moving the hulls from your production yards to where you need them, which in theory could be shorter distance. Maybe.

Note in Manny's initial set of posts he talks about mining ops in null. This has two benefits:

1. Logistics in its current form could change and be reduced dramatically.
2. These guys out running around in mining ships, freighters, industrials and so forth make for juicy targets.

The latter will hopefully draw in hostile gangs, which in turn would provide an opportunity for a defense fleet. In other words, more opportunity for small to medium sized engagements.

I can say its adorable seeing the attempts to justify a situation that benefits only some in disregard for the problem we are trying to solve.

As I said, I understand that fear is part of human nature and people want to band together to compensate for their sense of lack of security. But this game must be fun, and super large blocks are NOT fun.

If they cannot be constrained, or gently pushed towards splitting, then there is nothign to do here. And in here I mean in whole eve online 0.0 future. Be happy to sit in your tomb of boredom. But other people are more capable of putting the welfare of the game they like ahead of their own fear of having to face difficulties in game